Will 'progressives' learn that the belief they occupy the moral high ground doesn't give them immunity to refer to people with any pejoratives they like?
Brave woman standing up against an intolerant snowflake. If she ends up having to pay costs once the case is done (hopefully not), please let us know. I’m sure plenty of people would wish to contribute in order to help her.
Thanks, Katrina, for the link to the review of Fear in The Conversation. It's pretty damning.
I imagine HarpersCollins would have had the book legalled before publication. If it didn't, their publishers/senior editors are going to look reckless. Head office won't be best pleased.
The Spinoff's reply to the complaint made to the Media Council about Fear notes: "The extract in question is from a book published by Harper Collins, a well-known and respected local publisher who 'legalled' the book before publication."
As you say, it would seem pretty extraordinary for that not to have happened.
I'm interested why a lawyer experienced in media law would have approved the book for publication. Maybe the woolliness of Clarke's use of "alt-right" and "far right" etc — and how liberally they are bandied about in NZ media — makes them seem more innocuous than they might in other countries.
Ah - you read Spinoff’s reply more thoroughly than I did. You’ve shown me up - lol! Lesson learned :-) You may have a point that because Clark never defined those terms, it creates a legal grey area. I noted that the writer of the book review in The Conversation offered definitions of alt-right, far-right, and extremism that differed a quite a bit in some areas from what the Merriam Webster dictionary’s were. What Clark has said may also count as ‘sincerely held opinion’ seeing as he didn’t actually accuse anyone directly and unequivocally of being any of those things.
Which is a major difference with the Moira Deeming case where John Pesutto directly implied she was unfit to belong to the Victorian Parliamentary Liberal Party because she associated with neo-Nazis and held neo-Nazi views.
Malfeasance might be a stretch, but I don’t disagree that Clark certainly seemed mal-intentioned with the things he said in the excerpt The Spinoff published.
Good on Helen for standing up to these left-wing bullies. What has become increasingly obvious is that both sides have factions that are just plain bullies. And that both sides have those who have the "all in" attitude ("you need to fully agree with me on everything or we can't work together"). That's how you get women like Kara Dansky on Fox News, because no other MSM would give her an audience. I admire and support Family First for the great work they are doing on the kids and gender stuff, but I don't share their attitude to abortion at all.
Different issues can have differing opinions and viewpoints and agreeing to disagree seems to be a lost art.
Someone said it very well recently -EDI Jester, I think - that this is a collaborative movement, not a collective one. I like that I have connected with people in this way, which I may never have otherwise done so, because of the other differences we have.
I wouldn’t regard Helen as far right, I have liaised with her on SM, I certainly wouldn’t engage with someone that has far right extremism views. Seems like a pretty pathetic list he has scrambled together, if he thinks these women are far right he needs to research exactly what it is and take note of what far right views. However nowadays, the extreme left will view anyone that is prepared to question the status quo as far right conservative. I find most far left ideology , policy and ideas an encroachment on my freedom to act how ever I wish in society and in the workplace. He would be surprised to find that he has some conservative friends and family I am sure !!!
It seems that WORIADS must be *enforced* through court (reasonably impartial and perhaps otherwise, looking at you USA) judgements that are starting to pile up.
I sincerely hope there is a tipping point for these “be kind progressive” idiots (full disclosure, I’m a “be kind - to everyone including and most importantly women and kids and the *truly* vulnerable” progressive idiot myself) but I fear there may be no point at which they can back down and accept what they’ve supported and wrought.
I’m frankly “over it” in terms of trying to be kind to these folks, as I’m tired of being judged - at best! - as a reasonable, pro-woman/kids/science but still hurtful bigot-adjacent person.
But my wife and NB adult child complicate things:
Why must I, a loving father and husband who supports & applauds my child’s right to their own identity & their passionate advocacy (as misguided and damaging as I think it is to them and their “community”) be forced to keep *my* feelings and identity (as fierce protector of the vulnerable, esp. women & kids) hidden?
(Why should their feelings of “being hurt”trump my empathy for victims of GI, aside from the “pain via offence” they’ve internalized thanks to the TRA persecution complex with which they’ve been “love”-bombed?)
TRAs have ruined everything they’ve touched, from the personal to the political to the institutional to the societal.
But we all must (and I will) carry on the fight as best as we can as our individual situations permit!
Apologies, that was a spew and a selfish one at that.
I know every one of you has similar experiences, some even worse and harder to navigate.
I’m grateful to all of you fellow GC travellers for helping me to manage these fraught situations, for allowing me a voice (pseudonymous as it must be for the above reasons).
One spew is not selfish, constant spews are a tad tedious, I admit :-) We’ve all vented sometimes in a time and place that takes even ourselves by surprise. So, all good - and I learned a bit about your background from it. It must be tough going having an adult NB kid and a wife whom I’m guessing supports that.
I am like many, many, many others, and have no ‘be kind’ left in me towards TRAs, either. All they’ve done is exploit any kindness shown towards them for their own selfish purposes, and - as you say - have ruined so much for women and kids. The only thing I have to say to them these days is “get fckd”.
I still believe that, broadly speaking, though, people can identify as whatever they want if it doesn’t negatively impact others, but forcing others to believe it, too, is never going to work. Having said that, I also realise that social norms of behaviour had their place, and although I acknowledge they could get restrictive, bringing some of them back will bring back a few much needed boundaries again.
Don’t apologise, it’s necessary to vent sometimes and at least this is a safe space to do it. For the record I’m feeling similar to you, getting sick and tired of having to keep my opinions hidden. I guess this time of year when families are getting together highlights these feelings. My brothers and sister in Christchurch are all getting together Boxing Day, I’m not invited being the nasty Terf that I am. 😕
Interesting how nasty those who think they occupy the moral high ground can be. Hope you have a nice Christmas and New Year, despite efforts from the nasty non-terfs to try and make it otherwise for you.
I appreciate the preciousness of our domestic detente, one which I have no desire to upset for our nuclear family’s present greater good.
But that can’t mean for me to completely ignore the even greater need, for women, girls, rationality, and societal, to fight the GI scourge and its underlying dehumanisation and corrupting incoherence.
Just have to do it more quietly, and pseudonymously…
I hope that someday (soon!) we’ll all be given a chance to welcome back those friends and family who’ve been “be kinded into submisssion”, if we choose to allow them with or without adequate apologies for *all* the mistreatment that they’ve supported and/or dished out.
Until then, solidarity and friendship from the Terven in support of the efforts that we each make - including “simply” resisting personally - are a balm for me, as I hope it is for you, and far preferable to dismissing my own truths (and “identity”).
And maybe I know - thanks to you and this thread - what I might write about as my first Substack post: the “hidden costs” of being branded with a scarlet T.
Be well, be good to yourself and those around you (while maintaining your integrity), and best wishes for that future day when the scales fall from the eyes of the deceived.
What is equally annoying is when people within the so called gender critical movement also throw around the term far right when referring to other GC campaigners who don't happen to be in their particular gang!!
Brave woman standing up against an intolerant snowflake. If she ends up having to pay costs once the case is done (hopefully not), please let us know. I’m sure plenty of people would wish to contribute in order to help her.
I will - and I’m sure there will be others who feel the same as you. Me, for one :-) Thank you.
Have you followed the defamation case in Oz where a Liberal MP fighting for women's rights successfully sued her leader and won $300k?
Yes, it was awesome :-)
I have reported on it in detail on my substack😄
Dusty
Thanks, Katrina, for the link to the review of Fear in The Conversation. It's pretty damning.
I imagine HarpersCollins would have had the book legalled before publication. If it didn't, their publishers/senior editors are going to look reckless. Head office won't be best pleased.
It seems unlikely they wouldn’t have. And yet here we are. Hard to know if it’s a case or arrogance or ignorance.
The Spinoff's reply to the complaint made to the Media Council about Fear notes: "The extract in question is from a book published by Harper Collins, a well-known and respected local publisher who 'legalled' the book before publication."
As you say, it would seem pretty extraordinary for that not to have happened.
I'm interested why a lawyer experienced in media law would have approved the book for publication. Maybe the woolliness of Clarke's use of "alt-right" and "far right" etc — and how liberally they are bandied about in NZ media — makes them seem more innocuous than they might in other countries.
Ah - you read Spinoff’s reply more thoroughly than I did. You’ve shown me up - lol! Lesson learned :-) You may have a point that because Clark never defined those terms, it creates a legal grey area. I noted that the writer of the book review in The Conversation offered definitions of alt-right, far-right, and extremism that differed a quite a bit in some areas from what the Merriam Webster dictionary’s were. What Clark has said may also count as ‘sincerely held opinion’ seeing as he didn’t actually accuse anyone directly and unequivocally of being any of those things.
Which is a major difference with the Moira Deeming case where John Pesutto directly implied she was unfit to belong to the Victorian Parliamentary Liberal Party because she associated with neo-Nazis and held neo-Nazi views.
Arrogance, ignorance, or malfeasance?
Malfeasance might be a stretch, but I don’t disagree that Clark certainly seemed mal-intentioned with the things he said in the excerpt The Spinoff published.
Good on Helen for standing up to these left-wing bullies. What has become increasingly obvious is that both sides have factions that are just plain bullies. And that both sides have those who have the "all in" attitude ("you need to fully agree with me on everything or we can't work together"). That's how you get women like Kara Dansky on Fox News, because no other MSM would give her an audience. I admire and support Family First for the great work they are doing on the kids and gender stuff, but I don't share their attitude to abortion at all.
Different issues can have differing opinions and viewpoints and agreeing to disagree seems to be a lost art.
Someone said it very well recently -EDI Jester, I think - that this is a collaborative movement, not a collective one. I like that I have connected with people in this way, which I may never have otherwise done so, because of the other differences we have.
It might have been me but I was quoting EDI 😁
I wouldn’t regard Helen as far right, I have liaised with her on SM, I certainly wouldn’t engage with someone that has far right extremism views. Seems like a pretty pathetic list he has scrambled together, if he thinks these women are far right he needs to research exactly what it is and take note of what far right views. However nowadays, the extreme left will view anyone that is prepared to question the status quo as far right conservative. I find most far left ideology , policy and ideas an encroachment on my freedom to act how ever I wish in society and in the workplace. He would be surprised to find that he has some conservative friends and family I am sure !!!
It seems that WORIADS must be *enforced* through court (reasonably impartial and perhaps otherwise, looking at you USA) judgements that are starting to pile up.
I sincerely hope there is a tipping point for these “be kind progressive” idiots (full disclosure, I’m a “be kind - to everyone including and most importantly women and kids and the *truly* vulnerable” progressive idiot myself) but I fear there may be no point at which they can back down and accept what they’ve supported and wrought.
I’m frankly “over it” in terms of trying to be kind to these folks, as I’m tired of being judged - at best! - as a reasonable, pro-woman/kids/science but still hurtful bigot-adjacent person.
But my wife and NB adult child complicate things:
Why must I, a loving father and husband who supports & applauds my child’s right to their own identity & their passionate advocacy (as misguided and damaging as I think it is to them and their “community”) be forced to keep *my* feelings and identity (as fierce protector of the vulnerable, esp. women & kids) hidden?
(Why should their feelings of “being hurt”trump my empathy for victims of GI, aside from the “pain via offence” they’ve internalized thanks to the TRA persecution complex with which they’ve been “love”-bombed?)
TRAs have ruined everything they’ve touched, from the personal to the political to the institutional to the societal.
But we all must (and I will) carry on the fight as best as we can as our individual situations permit!
Apologies, that was a spew and a selfish one at that.
I know every one of you has similar experiences, some even worse and harder to navigate.
I’m grateful to all of you fellow GC travellers for helping me to manage these fraught situations, for allowing me a voice (pseudonymous as it must be for the above reasons).
One spew is not selfish, constant spews are a tad tedious, I admit :-) We’ve all vented sometimes in a time and place that takes even ourselves by surprise. So, all good - and I learned a bit about your background from it. It must be tough going having an adult NB kid and a wife whom I’m guessing supports that.
I am like many, many, many others, and have no ‘be kind’ left in me towards TRAs, either. All they’ve done is exploit any kindness shown towards them for their own selfish purposes, and - as you say - have ruined so much for women and kids. The only thing I have to say to them these days is “get fckd”.
I still believe that, broadly speaking, though, people can identify as whatever they want if it doesn’t negatively impact others, but forcing others to believe it, too, is never going to work. Having said that, I also realise that social norms of behaviour had their place, and although I acknowledge they could get restrictive, bringing some of them back will bring back a few much needed boundaries again.
Don’t apologise, it’s necessary to vent sometimes and at least this is a safe space to do it. For the record I’m feeling similar to you, getting sick and tired of having to keep my opinions hidden. I guess this time of year when families are getting together highlights these feelings. My brothers and sister in Christchurch are all getting together Boxing Day, I’m not invited being the nasty Terf that I am. 😕
Interesting how nasty those who think they occupy the moral high ground can be. Hope you have a nice Christmas and New Year, despite efforts from the nasty non-terfs to try and make it otherwise for you.
I’m so sorry to hear that Catherine.
I appreciate the preciousness of our domestic detente, one which I have no desire to upset for our nuclear family’s present greater good.
But that can’t mean for me to completely ignore the even greater need, for women, girls, rationality, and societal, to fight the GI scourge and its underlying dehumanisation and corrupting incoherence.
Just have to do it more quietly, and pseudonymously…
I hope that someday (soon!) we’ll all be given a chance to welcome back those friends and family who’ve been “be kinded into submisssion”, if we choose to allow them with or without adequate apologies for *all* the mistreatment that they’ve supported and/or dished out.
Until then, solidarity and friendship from the Terven in support of the efforts that we each make - including “simply” resisting personally - are a balm for me, as I hope it is for you, and far preferable to dismissing my own truths (and “identity”).
And maybe I know - thanks to you and this thread - what I might write about as my first Substack post: the “hidden costs” of being branded with a scarlet T.
Be well, be good to yourself and those around you (while maintaining your integrity), and best wishes for that future day when the scales fall from the eyes of the deceived.
Sorry to hear that Catherine. Well done for your Terfing
Dusty
And also I could not agree more with your every word. You should think about taking up writing ;)
Deepest thanks once again,
DC
Lol! Take care :-)
Once again, your grace (and that of most Terven) is truly appreciated, Katrina.
Love and acting upon that love - necessarily including some “really tough love” - will get us through this.
And maybe even act as a crucial cautionary tale for us & for the future.
Thanks, Katrina and best of luck to Helen H.
What is equally annoying is when people within the so called gender critical movement also throw around the term far right when referring to other GC campaigners who don't happen to be in their particular gang!!
Have cross posted
https://dustymasterson.substack.com/p/im-dreaming
Dusty
That guy is vile….
I've never met him, only seen pictures of him, but I don't like the 'righteous progressive' position or views he holds.
No I haven’t either, but I’ve seen the odd video of him and some stuff on X…seems enough for me to make my judgement 🤓