Stop it right now. Stop these new demands on women to provide hard evidence which shows that allowing men into our spaces and sports doesn’t go well for us. The reasons for having women’s and girls’ single-sex spaces and sports are the same as they ever were, and don’t change just because a man says he’s a woman. Meanwhile, everyone in the TQ+ category of the LGBTQ+ only has to provide feelings and stories for their requests to be accommodated.
Another brilliant summary Katrina. Breaking the social contract (of men avoiding the spaces provided for women) is violating women, even if the men do nothing "wrong" while present. I mean, why were those spaces created in the first place? Surely if they weren't needed (for the protection of women from men), they would never have come into existence in the first place!
"We have facts, they have feelings. Feelings are important, but not when they actually hurt others by for example, encouraging them to go to doctors for ‘treatment’ that mutilates them and leaves them unable to function as they were designed to." https://lucyleader.substack.com/p/girls-can-do-anything-but-sorry-boys
Exactly, Robin. I don't like 'needing' those spaces, but I do. There's a good reason for them, and those reasons haven't changed throughout our entire history. I don't know if they ever will.
Yes, we're born the sex we are, and that's that. I don't particularly like 'needing' single-sex spaces for safety, although I admit that there are times there's a comfort in them (men will find the same thing with some men-only spaces), but I can't identify out of being a woman no matter how much I wanted to, if I did.
I noticed that at Heathrow airport last week they now have an extra “inclusive” toilet which is separate. Members of the trans community would be happy with that if the goal wasn’t to push into womens spaces for some kind of sexual kick.
I like Winnie's policy of building unisex toilets, while retaining the male and female ones and requiring anyone who's not a biological female but who doesn't feel comfortable in the men's room to use the unisex ones. It's the obvious solution if you care about women's rights but don't hate trans people. Men who identify as women won't be happy with this solution, because it doesn't validate their fee fee's or give them access to women's spaces to offend sexually against women, but it will allow both women and men like Georgina Beyer to be safe and participate in society (something that is difficult to do if there is nowhere for you to go to the toilet).
Yes, yes, yes. And note - for this to work we have to be clear that men are not women. If we retreat from calling them "men" to calling them "males", we've lost the fight. Call them men, continue to call them men, do not engage in debate about that fact. If they challenge it, simply say "Anyone can see and hear that they are men, they are fooling no one." Don't give an inch.
As much as possible I call them men who say they’re women. I don’t use ‘identify’ as that tends to imply some legitimacy of some sort. However, I admit that there are times when I strategically use different language according to whom I’m addressing. I don’t particularly like doing it, but at the moment it’s part of how I strategise.
No matter which way I look at it, fundamentally it’s about a woman’s right to say no. And anyone who doesn’t respect it doesn’t deserve respect themselves in a civilized society. Unfortunately, that includes many politicians and most bizarrely some women.
The group advocating for the abolition of women’s spaces must prove that such abolishment is harmless to women and necessary for the men wishing to enter our spaces. Then, and only then can councillors weigh the necessity of destroying women’s spaces.
My thoughts exactly. First, prove without a shred of doubt that abolishing women's and girls' spaces will do no harm to women and girls. If there is even the smallest possibility that it might not be safe, it doesn't happen. However, I don't think we should go down the track of men entering our spaces for any reason, as they will use it to override all other considerations.
Katrina I don’t think the way trans advocates have passed their policies on the basis of feelings is okay. I don’t think it would be okay for women to do the same.
I thought about this issue when I used public toilets over a period of several months. I was surprised by how many single unisex toilets I routinely used. No wonder women wailing about feeling unsafe isn’t convincing.
I was also aware that the cost (space, cleaning costs etc) of providing toilets can also be a burden on small businesses like cafes and it seemed to me the smaller, more rural etc the business the more likely they were to have unisex toilets. The toilets I found insecure were out the back of small rural petrol stations - which are disappearing and I expect the locals would rather have the petrol station with unisex toilets than not at all. So I don’t think it’s a simple issue.
However I really appreciated the global south evidence for female toilets for women labourers etc in your other post. I would’ve written the post using that to explain why women only spaces matter - and to think about when they actually do matter today. Sorry I do like evidence - and my experience has been that if something does matter there will be evidence. I may have to look for it.
More on women’s feelings, I lived in South London in the 80s and 90s. In that period many middle class women complained about men (or women with kids) begging because it made them feel bad. I didn’t care about their feelings. Being frightened or uncomfortable is not sufficient reason to stop other people using public space. That’s why I use evidence. Sorry I expect you will disagree.
It's fine to disagree :-) I may not have written my piece clearly enough, so that's always something for me to consider. The point I was trying to make was that all the evidence women and girls need as a reason for single-sex spaces has already been provided long ago, and nothing about that has changed, not even when a man says he's a woman. If the feelings and stories of transpeople are all that's needed to make policies and laws which let them into women's and girls' spaces, then that should be all women and girls need to keep men who say they're women out of our spaces, too. However, we're being asked to provide 'evidence' (when all the evidence has been provided already), but transpeople aren't asked to provide evidence that they need to be in women's and girls' spaces.
It's long past time that MEN widen their definition to include all men, even the exceptional, gender non conforming men and time for women to stop giving away our bodies and lives. The 'compassion' of a legal fiction for trans sexual 'women' has led to an unseen but now obvious social catastrophy for women and children. In the spirit of 'how we got here' I recommend two thoughful (long ) interviews with two fully medicalised 'transsexual women' Corrina Cohn "I had more conversations with feminists. And one of them challenged me and said, basically, she said, “Why do you believe that you are an exceptional member of class woman instead of an exceptional member of class, man? And I was like, “I don't have an answer. Like, how dare you? Let me think about that, though. And I did. I thought about that a lot. And I was like, I am a male.” https://wesleyyang.substack.com/p/heres-the-bottom-lineit-is-going#details and Mianne Bagger https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eKAmznamHEg who after a golf career invading women's sport, has begun to reflect on his role in this controversy "maybe it's required to have that reset [to sex not gender] transexual men and women need to renegoitiate... how do we negoitate , navigate life in society."
Unfortunately, it's true that our previous courtesy and willingness to cut transsexuals some slack has now backfired on us. It has been taken advantage of by those who are a 'different breed' and now we women need to be much more hard line in order to protect those rights and safeties we fought long and hard for.
Great article - thank you. I'm sure there would be formal 'evidence' if women were permitted to discuss this issue. No research institution would allow research into the impact of self ID on women's rights etc... it would be canceled in a second
Another brilliant summary Katrina. Breaking the social contract (of men avoiding the spaces provided for women) is violating women, even if the men do nothing "wrong" while present. I mean, why were those spaces created in the first place? Surely if they weren't needed (for the protection of women from men), they would never have come into existence in the first place!
"We have facts, they have feelings. Feelings are important, but not when they actually hurt others by for example, encouraging them to go to doctors for ‘treatment’ that mutilates them and leaves them unable to function as they were designed to." https://lucyleader.substack.com/p/girls-can-do-anything-but-sorry-boys
Exactly, Robin. I don't like 'needing' those spaces, but I do. There's a good reason for them, and those reasons haven't changed throughout our entire history. I don't know if they ever will.
Time to harden up.
I’m appalled that a birth certificate can be changed because of hurty feelings.
If you think you have been mis diagnosed as to your sex then have your DNA checked.
XX you’re female XY you’re a bloke like me.
Don’t like the result? Complain to God.
In the meantime if you are XY like me then absolutely stay out of the dressing rooms and toilets reserved specifically for my wife and daughters.
Yes, we're born the sex we are, and that's that. I don't particularly like 'needing' single-sex spaces for safety, although I admit that there are times there's a comfort in them (men will find the same thing with some men-only spaces), but I can't identify out of being a woman no matter how much I wanted to, if I did.
I noticed that at Heathrow airport last week they now have an extra “inclusive” toilet which is separate. Members of the trans community would be happy with that if the goal wasn’t to push into womens spaces for some kind of sexual kick.
I like Winnie's policy of building unisex toilets, while retaining the male and female ones and requiring anyone who's not a biological female but who doesn't feel comfortable in the men's room to use the unisex ones. It's the obvious solution if you care about women's rights but don't hate trans people. Men who identify as women won't be happy with this solution, because it doesn't validate their fee fee's or give them access to women's spaces to offend sexually against women, but it will allow both women and men like Georgina Beyer to be safe and participate in society (something that is difficult to do if there is nowhere for you to go to the toilet).
Yes, that solution was put forward way back, but - as you note - it was rejected because it didn't 'validate' those men who say they're women.
I understand that Mana Wahine Korero essentially wrote his trans vs women's rights policy for him. (Smiley face emoji).
I know they have consulted with NZ First, and wouldn't be surprised if NZ First's policy was their work :-)
Yes, yes, yes. And note - for this to work we have to be clear that men are not women. If we retreat from calling them "men" to calling them "males", we've lost the fight. Call them men, continue to call them men, do not engage in debate about that fact. If they challenge it, simply say "Anyone can see and hear that they are men, they are fooling no one." Don't give an inch.
As much as possible I call them men who say they’re women. I don’t use ‘identify’ as that tends to imply some legitimacy of some sort. However, I admit that there are times when I strategically use different language according to whom I’m addressing. I don’t particularly like doing it, but at the moment it’s part of how I strategise.
Yep. I’ve done that as well, but it’s becoming less and less necessary I think.
No matter which way I look at it, fundamentally it’s about a woman’s right to say no. And anyone who doesn’t respect it doesn’t deserve respect themselves in a civilized society. Unfortunately, that includes many politicians and most bizarrely some women.
Bizarre about the women, indeed!
Nice one Katrina... Facts VS feelings indeed..
The group advocating for the abolition of women’s spaces must prove that such abolishment is harmless to women and necessary for the men wishing to enter our spaces. Then, and only then can councillors weigh the necessity of destroying women’s spaces.
My thoughts exactly. First, prove without a shred of doubt that abolishing women's and girls' spaces will do no harm to women and girls. If there is even the smallest possibility that it might not be safe, it doesn't happen. However, I don't think we should go down the track of men entering our spaces for any reason, as they will use it to override all other considerations.
True. Give them an inch, they take a mile.
If a person produces or produced sperm - they do not belong in women’s spaces.
Katrina I don’t think the way trans advocates have passed their policies on the basis of feelings is okay. I don’t think it would be okay for women to do the same.
I thought about this issue when I used public toilets over a period of several months. I was surprised by how many single unisex toilets I routinely used. No wonder women wailing about feeling unsafe isn’t convincing.
I was also aware that the cost (space, cleaning costs etc) of providing toilets can also be a burden on small businesses like cafes and it seemed to me the smaller, more rural etc the business the more likely they were to have unisex toilets. The toilets I found insecure were out the back of small rural petrol stations - which are disappearing and I expect the locals would rather have the petrol station with unisex toilets than not at all. So I don’t think it’s a simple issue.
However I really appreciated the global south evidence for female toilets for women labourers etc in your other post. I would’ve written the post using that to explain why women only spaces matter - and to think about when they actually do matter today. Sorry I do like evidence - and my experience has been that if something does matter there will be evidence. I may have to look for it.
More on women’s feelings, I lived in South London in the 80s and 90s. In that period many middle class women complained about men (or women with kids) begging because it made them feel bad. I didn’t care about their feelings. Being frightened or uncomfortable is not sufficient reason to stop other people using public space. That’s why I use evidence. Sorry I expect you will disagree.
It's fine to disagree :-) I may not have written my piece clearly enough, so that's always something for me to consider. The point I was trying to make was that all the evidence women and girls need as a reason for single-sex spaces has already been provided long ago, and nothing about that has changed, not even when a man says he's a woman. If the feelings and stories of transpeople are all that's needed to make policies and laws which let them into women's and girls' spaces, then that should be all women and girls need to keep men who say they're women out of our spaces, too. However, we're being asked to provide 'evidence' (when all the evidence has been provided already), but transpeople aren't asked to provide evidence that they need to be in women's and girls' spaces.
It's long past time that MEN widen their definition to include all men, even the exceptional, gender non conforming men and time for women to stop giving away our bodies and lives. The 'compassion' of a legal fiction for trans sexual 'women' has led to an unseen but now obvious social catastrophy for women and children. In the spirit of 'how we got here' I recommend two thoughful (long ) interviews with two fully medicalised 'transsexual women' Corrina Cohn "I had more conversations with feminists. And one of them challenged me and said, basically, she said, “Why do you believe that you are an exceptional member of class woman instead of an exceptional member of class, man? And I was like, “I don't have an answer. Like, how dare you? Let me think about that, though. And I did. I thought about that a lot. And I was like, I am a male.” https://wesleyyang.substack.com/p/heres-the-bottom-lineit-is-going#details and Mianne Bagger https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eKAmznamHEg who after a golf career invading women's sport, has begun to reflect on his role in this controversy "maybe it's required to have that reset [to sex not gender] transexual men and women need to renegoitiate... how do we negoitate , navigate life in society."
Unfortunately, it's true that our previous courtesy and willingness to cut transsexuals some slack has now backfired on us. It has been taken advantage of by those who are a 'different breed' and now we women need to be much more hard line in order to protect those rights and safeties we fought long and hard for.
Yeah, we don't need men to tell women that they are men though. Women already knew that.
Great article - thank you. I'm sure there would be formal 'evidence' if women were permitted to discuss this issue. No research institution would allow research into the impact of self ID on women's rights etc... it would be canceled in a second
Time to stop asking for permission...
I doubt if it would even last a second - lol!
Yes, there won't be any opportunity to provide 'evidence' that women don't like it... the activists have literally scared women into silence...