I'm more uncomfortable with an overtly feminist pro-gay gender critical critique of gender and the power of the amazing work being done by feminists may be conflated with the anti-gay not very into women's autonomy agenda of McCroskie and Tamaki and those two seem to be willing that misinterpretation. Also continue to worry about the detranstioner Mel taking her shirt off in front of a crowd. Although I am reassured she consented, she has in recent years consented to having her breasts removed, something it sounds like she profoundly regrets. I am also dubious of the organising group calling itself 'centrist' given it will be fully aware Tamaki blames gays for earthquakes. That is dishonest.
A brave report on kiwis who care enough to stand together for biological truth. At 82 I want to make a donation but there appears to be no provision for this.
If you want to make a donation to Inflection Point, so they can hold more events like this, there are bank account details for that in this link - https://inflectionpoint.nz/
the problem is though - to support the left now is to support cult beliefs that are way off the scale - and along with those beliefs you are not allowed to speak against them. Probably better to support freedoms - even if that riles the lefts - i don't need your equity or your egalitarian society - i just need a voice and opportunity - the left is removing both of those
My enemies enemy is not my friend. Have you been holding your hands over your ears and blinding your eyes to watch destiny Church is? Transgender activists are a mouse compared to the lion that is right wing Cristian activists. These people are opposed to the rights of women and all non-marital sexual/love relationships. They are opposed to one of the basic tools of public health - vaccination. They take money from the poor to give to themselves aka their church. They learn from the worst of the USA and import those lies into our communities. What has happened to you that you think it is okay to join with them? You will genuinely discredit gender critical feminism in this country.
Katrina hasn't "joined" with Destiny Church at all. As a gender critical woman (and I won't say feminist, because it's so contested and contextural) she has an issue shared in common with them. Sharing a political objective doesn't have any relationship whatsoever to endorsing any other belief of Destiny Church. Such an alliance is purely pragmatic and not tantamount to conversion to an alternate agenda, least of all to abandoning commitment to women's rights.
I think it is naive to believe that the small gender critical feminist movement could have a pragmatic alliance with the huge wealthy exploitative fraudulent whale that is the evangelical churches. It’s morally bankrupt to join with groups doing so much damage in our society and globally. Tamaki is pathetic but he stands with the evil these Churches promote.
Are you trying to suggest the GCF is large compared to right wing Xtian Fundamentalists? I’d say you’ve got to be joking but you appear to think you are.
Or large compared to the number of pro-TRAs? I’d say you need to get out more - though numbers are improving and we certainly don’t need to kowtow to fundies to grow our numbers.
Christians including those in Destinys Church, have a right to parctice their beliefs in the way they see fit.
I know very little about Destinys Church, but given that our media is very left biased, and the growing distain the left has for any religion, I am very skeptical about what our joke of a media writes about Tamaki.
You make a lot of claims but what actual evidence do you have that evangelical churches do anymore damage to our society than say, Big Banks, the Green Party or big Pharma?
Kia ora Tim, We have very different values so this is for others who may read your comment above. Perhaps you haven't heard of Wikipedia? All quotes below have references. https://.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brian_Tamaki
There is much further information in the entry but here are some examples. Please note one item not included is that Tamaki is highly influenced by USA fundamentalist mega churches who spread prosperity gospel, anti vaccination, traditional female roles, any homosexuality, right to beat your children etc.
"the Destiny Church is known for its position against homosexuality, its patriarchal views, and for its calls for a return to biblical conservative family values and morals. Tamaki has also stated the COVID-19 pandemic is a sign the world has "strayed from God"
Tamaki opposed Sue Bradford's private members Child Discipline Bill, which removed the legal defence of "reasonable force" for prosecutions of parents who have assaulted their children.
Tamaki regards the perceived lack of male leadership in New Zealand, including the leadership over one's family, as "the work of the devil".
Tamaki issued a Tweet protesting at Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern's decision to hold an Islamic call to prayer ahead of the two minutes of silence being held for the victims of the Christchurch shootings on 22 March 2019.
"Tamaki advocates prosperity theology, which has been criticised as immoral and potentially dangerous." E.g. He has a huge house built with monay donated to his church. "In 2004 the Sunday Star-Times[38] reported that Mr Tamaki "hijacked" $450,000 from elderly couple Barry and Marian Wilson. The Wilsons lent the money, which they had received from the sale of nautical clothing label Line7 in the mid-'90s, on the understanding that it was to be used to purchase a block of land in Rotorua for the construction of a church. It was reported that after almost 10 years and countless attempts to contact Mr Tamaki and his wife Hannah, the Wilsons had given up hope of ever recovering the full amount. The Sunday Star-Times asked Mr Tamaki for a response to a series of questions regarding the loan, but he declined to respond.
I have heard of Wikipedia. But I don't have much more faith in it then the mainstream media or the rest of big tech.
I'm not interested in defending Tamaki, as I said I don't know much about him. I simply observe that you seem very eager to believe everything that casts him in a negative light and seem content to view him dimly, based on disagreement with his positions, while at the same time having never met him personally, nor having been to his Church and probably never even having met someone who has been to his church. And you base all this on stuff you've read on the internet or in the MSM and quote Wikipedia at me as if that should settle the fact that you are correct in holding what seem to me to be not much more than poorly evidenced anti christian prejudices.
You also mention "traditional female" roles with a seemingly negative connotation, in which case you might like to read what Mary Harrington (Feminism against progress) or Lousie Perry (The case against the sexual revolution) have to say on that topic. Perhaps you already have. In which case you would know that they offer a large body of evidence that the feminist movement in the last 40 odd years or so, while acting in good faith, has also scored some spectacular own goals. I suspect those women might also agree with at least some of what Tamaki says, but I don't know and wouldn't want to speak for them as that would be a bit patriarchial of me.
From her page we read the standard Disinformation Project tropes (repeated uncritically by RNZ) about a "massive increase in online transphobia" something they consistently fail to show any evidence for, much like they fail to show evidence for anything they say.
"Radio New Zealand reported that Keen-Minshull's New Zealand visit had led to a massive increase in online transphobia within the country, especially against public figures such as Green Party co-leader Marama Davidson and transgender activist Shaneel Lal, who participated in the counter-protest. Counter-extremism researcher Byron C. Clark observed that extremist groups in New Zealand had adopted transphobia as a "wedge issue" to exploit public fear and "get themselves closer to the mainstream."[65]
While our values may be different I try to keep mine consistent. I believe Tamaki was right about lockdowns, he is right about free speech, he was right about the covid vaccine, and he's right about the extremist trans nonsense. I do not share his views on homosexuaIity or on the existence of God and I suspect, many other things . I doubt I would ever vote for him. But that's fine, I'm yet to have met a person who I agree with on everything.
Speaking of voting, I assume from your comments that you voted for either Labour or The Greens both of which seems a bit weird as they are the pre-eminent political pushers of all of the extremist transgender nonsense. All of this critical theory garbage comes from the left, leftists invented it, in extremely left leaning departments of left leaning universities in left leaning countries and leftist politicians and a leftist media have rammed it down our throats.
I might also point out that your support of the left seemingly puts you on the same team as Shaneel Lal, who I find to be an extremely low quality, dim-witted individual with a very poor moral compass and a worse influence on society than Tamaki. For instance, I'm unable to find any evidence of Tamakis beliefs resulting in the mutilation of children, but perhaps you can dig something up from Wikipedia for me.
In any case, I don't believe that because one goes to an event (or supports a political party) where one doesn't hold all the same positions as the other attendess, that means one actually does agree with things one doesn't agree with, simply by attending.
To me that seems to be both an incoherent and intolerant position.
If you're against the transgender nonsense than good for you, on that I agree with you and I wish you all the best in the battle against this nonsense and I can easily do that without holding against you the fact that you likely voted for the worst Prime Minster in New Zealand's history.
Personally, I firmly believe that true tolerance comes from tolerating things you don't agree with, not tolerating all the things that your tribe says it's acceptable to tolerate. That's my own moral position, you are welcome to disagree with it, but either way I couldn't care less what Wikipedia has to say about it.
The Christian right runs mega churches that get 10,000 people. Tamaki isn’t in the top of the league but he knows how to run a show that impresses people and raises emotions - and takes huge amounts of money from the poorest groups in our society.
It was a good show you think? Well millions of people have been impressed before. You’ve probably called fundamentalist Xtians naive or even stupid in the past….
Until recently I did think of myself as a leftist progressive thinker and an atheist who never hesitated to bag religious belief, whether it be Christian, Hindu or Muslim. However, in my wiser senescent years I've come to have a less scathing view of Christianity. I've moved so far as to say I now observe many Christians, fundamentalist or otherwise, have more respect for women and our rights, freedoms and dignity than many progressives. The last 7 years, since I encountered Critical Social Justice and its manic adherents, have opened my eyes to the deep misogynism of the left.
Is your answer to accept the much deeper and more powerful misogyny of the right? It is not necessary to be scathing of all Xtians in order to reject these anti-vax, corrupt fundies.
This split happened before with the struggles among the left in the mid-20th century. A few people went across to the right but many good people stayed and struggled to make a more just left. This was the period of social welfare democracies across the West. Ordinary people had more resources - better housing, education, health services than ever before or since. (today we have more material goods like washing machines or computers). It was worth fighting to create a just and egalitarian society. There were strong anti-racist actions and 2nd wave feminism emerged. GCF's are beginning to make ground against TRA ideology. We don't have to stand alongside Xtian thugs - and it is obvious from the substack how prominent they were.
I'm unconcerned what Christians or their churches are doing as long as they keep the laws of the land. They can believe whatever they like, raise tithes and make $$$ from whatever sources are legal and apply it to whatever purposes they think are legitimate. As citizens of the nation they are entitled to strongly critique the Govts Covid 19 vaccination policy if they disagree with it. I don't share your view that their belief systems are extreme or extremely repressive toward women. I definitely don't view Christian believers as "thugs" and think such an extreme view has no grounding in reality. Being 65 I lived through the introduction of the Pill and the advancement of 2nd wave feminism and read all the prominent feminists of that era contemporaneously. If the Destiny Church are social conservatives who protect their young women from the pressures of modern day early sexualisation of girls I celebrate that. I don't believe chastity and delaying sexual activity until post teenage years or until marriage is a bad or damaging situation for young people, quite the opposite (though I probably did once)
People had more resources because of capitalism and a semi free market, neither of which are idealogies of the left.
Bismark invented the social welfare state as we know it and he was not a leftist.
The main reason that Europe has such a massive social system, built in the mid 20th century is because they outsourced their defense spending to the Americans.
Most of the left attitudes come from the bible, tolerance, fairness, justice, forgiveness, equality these were all espoused by Jesus Christ.
Perhaps the left despises Christians because they realise they are far better at practicing what they preach then the left have ever been.
LoL it wasn't HIS conference, he was one speaker among many. You sound hysterical. Calm down. I don't follow the Man on the Cross and yes, the enemy of my enemy is my friend - take the win, and when children are no longer being mutilated for feelings in their head, we'll part ways.
He has a vision which he is welcome to try and fulfil. We are welcome to stop it: AFTER we've won. As for 'gender critical' I'm not. That's a tainted bullshit term the managerial class call themselves as they fete and dine with perverted skinwalking trannys like David Hayton, tell us to get fucked for not using his preferred pronouns etc. I'm a believer in reality. Shove 'gender critical' into a stink ditch.
I disagree with KJK on other issues - we'll talk about that over a cuppa WHEN WE'VE WON.
Also, NZ is founded on Christian principles and I will fight until my last breath to keep the child raping woman hating religion of 'peace' far the fuck away from having power here, too.
Great write up Katrina. I enjoyed your perspective and as always your chronicling of what is happening in NZ is so valuable.
Thank you. That is a gracious comment, as I know you aren't comfortable with this event having taken place.
I'm more uncomfortable with an overtly feminist pro-gay gender critical critique of gender and the power of the amazing work being done by feminists may be conflated with the anti-gay not very into women's autonomy agenda of McCroskie and Tamaki and those two seem to be willing that misinterpretation. Also continue to worry about the detranstioner Mel taking her shirt off in front of a crowd. Although I am reassured she consented, she has in recent years consented to having her breasts removed, something it sounds like she profoundly regrets. I am also dubious of the organising group calling itself 'centrist' given it will be fully aware Tamaki blames gays for earthquakes. That is dishonest.
A brave report on kiwis who care enough to stand together for biological truth. At 82 I want to make a donation but there appears to be no provision for this.
If you want to make a donation to Inflection Point, so they can hold more events like this, there are bank account details for that in this link - https://inflectionpoint.nz/
Thank you for the coverage.
the problem is though - to support the left now is to support cult beliefs that are way off the scale - and along with those beliefs you are not allowed to speak against them. Probably better to support freedoms - even if that riles the lefts - i don't need your equity or your egalitarian society - i just need a voice and opportunity - the left is removing both of those
Thank you!
My enemies enemy is not my friend. Have you been holding your hands over your ears and blinding your eyes to watch destiny Church is? Transgender activists are a mouse compared to the lion that is right wing Cristian activists. These people are opposed to the rights of women and all non-marital sexual/love relationships. They are opposed to one of the basic tools of public health - vaccination. They take money from the poor to give to themselves aka their church. They learn from the worst of the USA and import those lies into our communities. What has happened to you that you think it is okay to join with them? You will genuinely discredit gender critical feminism in this country.
Katrina hasn't "joined" with Destiny Church at all. As a gender critical woman (and I won't say feminist, because it's so contested and contextural) she has an issue shared in common with them. Sharing a political objective doesn't have any relationship whatsoever to endorsing any other belief of Destiny Church. Such an alliance is purely pragmatic and not tantamount to conversion to an alternate agenda, least of all to abandoning commitment to women's rights.
I think it is naive to believe that the small gender critical feminist movement could have a pragmatic alliance with the huge wealthy exploitative fraudulent whale that is the evangelical churches. It’s morally bankrupt to join with groups doing so much damage in our society and globally. Tamaki is pathetic but he stands with the evil these Churches promote.
"....*small* gender critical feminist movement..."..?
Get away with you...lol
Are you trying to suggest the GCF is large compared to right wing Xtian Fundamentalists? I’d say you’ve got to be joking but you appear to think you are.
Or large compared to the number of pro-TRAs? I’d say you need to get out more - though numbers are improving and we certainly don’t need to kowtow to fundies to grow our numbers.
Christians including those in Destinys Church, have a right to parctice their beliefs in the way they see fit.
I know very little about Destinys Church, but given that our media is very left biased, and the growing distain the left has for any religion, I am very skeptical about what our joke of a media writes about Tamaki.
You make a lot of claims but what actual evidence do you have that evangelical churches do anymore damage to our society than say, Big Banks, the Green Party or big Pharma?
At least the evangelicals have some morals.
Kia ora Tim, We have very different values so this is for others who may read your comment above. Perhaps you haven't heard of Wikipedia? All quotes below have references. https://.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brian_Tamaki
There is much further information in the entry but here are some examples. Please note one item not included is that Tamaki is highly influenced by USA fundamentalist mega churches who spread prosperity gospel, anti vaccination, traditional female roles, any homosexuality, right to beat your children etc.
"the Destiny Church is known for its position against homosexuality, its patriarchal views, and for its calls for a return to biblical conservative family values and morals. Tamaki has also stated the COVID-19 pandemic is a sign the world has "strayed from God"
Tamaki opposed Sue Bradford's private members Child Discipline Bill, which removed the legal defence of "reasonable force" for prosecutions of parents who have assaulted their children.
Tamaki regards the perceived lack of male leadership in New Zealand, including the leadership over one's family, as "the work of the devil".
Tamaki issued a Tweet protesting at Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern's decision to hold an Islamic call to prayer ahead of the two minutes of silence being held for the victims of the Christchurch shootings on 22 March 2019.
"Tamaki advocates prosperity theology, which has been criticised as immoral and potentially dangerous." E.g. He has a huge house built with monay donated to his church. "In 2004 the Sunday Star-Times[38] reported that Mr Tamaki "hijacked" $450,000 from elderly couple Barry and Marian Wilson. The Wilsons lent the money, which they had received from the sale of nautical clothing label Line7 in the mid-'90s, on the understanding that it was to be used to purchase a block of land in Rotorua for the construction of a church. It was reported that after almost 10 years and countless attempts to contact Mr Tamaki and his wife Hannah, the Wilsons had given up hope of ever recovering the full amount. The Sunday Star-Times asked Mr Tamaki for a response to a series of questions regarding the loan, but he declined to respond.
I have heard of Wikipedia. But I don't have much more faith in it then the mainstream media or the rest of big tech.
I'm not interested in defending Tamaki, as I said I don't know much about him. I simply observe that you seem very eager to believe everything that casts him in a negative light and seem content to view him dimly, based on disagreement with his positions, while at the same time having never met him personally, nor having been to his Church and probably never even having met someone who has been to his church. And you base all this on stuff you've read on the internet or in the MSM and quote Wikipedia at me as if that should settle the fact that you are correct in holding what seem to me to be not much more than poorly evidenced anti christian prejudices.
You also mention "traditional female" roles with a seemingly negative connotation, in which case you might like to read what Mary Harrington (Feminism against progress) or Lousie Perry (The case against the sexual revolution) have to say on that topic. Perhaps you already have. In which case you would know that they offer a large body of evidence that the feminist movement in the last 40 odd years or so, while acting in good faith, has also scored some spectacular own goals. I suspect those women might also agree with at least some of what Tamaki says, but I don't know and wouldn't want to speak for them as that would be a bit patriarchial of me.
Returning to your seeming belief in the accuracy of Wikipedia, you could look at another feminists, Wikipedia page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kellie-Jay_Keen-Minshull
From her page we read the standard Disinformation Project tropes (repeated uncritically by RNZ) about a "massive increase in online transphobia" something they consistently fail to show any evidence for, much like they fail to show evidence for anything they say.
"Radio New Zealand reported that Keen-Minshull's New Zealand visit had led to a massive increase in online transphobia within the country, especially against public figures such as Green Party co-leader Marama Davidson and transgender activist Shaneel Lal, who participated in the counter-protest. Counter-extremism researcher Byron C. Clark observed that extremist groups in New Zealand had adopted transphobia as a "wedge issue" to exploit public fear and "get themselves closer to the mainstream."[65]
While our values may be different I try to keep mine consistent. I believe Tamaki was right about lockdowns, he is right about free speech, he was right about the covid vaccine, and he's right about the extremist trans nonsense. I do not share his views on homosexuaIity or on the existence of God and I suspect, many other things . I doubt I would ever vote for him. But that's fine, I'm yet to have met a person who I agree with on everything.
Speaking of voting, I assume from your comments that you voted for either Labour or The Greens both of which seems a bit weird as they are the pre-eminent political pushers of all of the extremist transgender nonsense. All of this critical theory garbage comes from the left, leftists invented it, in extremely left leaning departments of left leaning universities in left leaning countries and leftist politicians and a leftist media have rammed it down our throats.
I might also point out that your support of the left seemingly puts you on the same team as Shaneel Lal, who I find to be an extremely low quality, dim-witted individual with a very poor moral compass and a worse influence on society than Tamaki. For instance, I'm unable to find any evidence of Tamakis beliefs resulting in the mutilation of children, but perhaps you can dig something up from Wikipedia for me.
In any case, I don't believe that because one goes to an event (or supports a political party) where one doesn't hold all the same positions as the other attendess, that means one actually does agree with things one doesn't agree with, simply by attending.
To me that seems to be both an incoherent and intolerant position.
If you're against the transgender nonsense than good for you, on that I agree with you and I wish you all the best in the battle against this nonsense and I can easily do that without holding against you the fact that you likely voted for the worst Prime Minster in New Zealand's history.
Personally, I firmly believe that true tolerance comes from tolerating things you don't agree with, not tolerating all the things that your tribe says it's acceptable to tolerate. That's my own moral position, you are welcome to disagree with it, but either way I couldn't care less what Wikipedia has to say about it.
The Christian right runs mega churches that get 10,000 people. Tamaki isn’t in the top of the league but he knows how to run a show that impresses people and raises emotions - and takes huge amounts of money from the poorest groups in our society.
It was a good show you think? Well millions of people have been impressed before. You’ve probably called fundamentalist Xtians naive or even stupid in the past….
Until recently I did think of myself as a leftist progressive thinker and an atheist who never hesitated to bag religious belief, whether it be Christian, Hindu or Muslim. However, in my wiser senescent years I've come to have a less scathing view of Christianity. I've moved so far as to say I now observe many Christians, fundamentalist or otherwise, have more respect for women and our rights, freedoms and dignity than many progressives. The last 7 years, since I encountered Critical Social Justice and its manic adherents, have opened my eyes to the deep misogynism of the left.
100% agree!
200% agree (I am an agressive male so I have to out do Katrina).
Is your answer to accept the much deeper and more powerful misogyny of the right? It is not necessary to be scathing of all Xtians in order to reject these anti-vax, corrupt fundies.
This split happened before with the struggles among the left in the mid-20th century. A few people went across to the right but many good people stayed and struggled to make a more just left. This was the period of social welfare democracies across the West. Ordinary people had more resources - better housing, education, health services than ever before or since. (today we have more material goods like washing machines or computers). It was worth fighting to create a just and egalitarian society. There were strong anti-racist actions and 2nd wave feminism emerged. GCF's are beginning to make ground against TRA ideology. We don't have to stand alongside Xtian thugs - and it is obvious from the substack how prominent they were.
I'm unconcerned what Christians or their churches are doing as long as they keep the laws of the land. They can believe whatever they like, raise tithes and make $$$ from whatever sources are legal and apply it to whatever purposes they think are legitimate. As citizens of the nation they are entitled to strongly critique the Govts Covid 19 vaccination policy if they disagree with it. I don't share your view that their belief systems are extreme or extremely repressive toward women. I definitely don't view Christian believers as "thugs" and think such an extreme view has no grounding in reality. Being 65 I lived through the introduction of the Pill and the advancement of 2nd wave feminism and read all the prominent feminists of that era contemporaneously. If the Destiny Church are social conservatives who protect their young women from the pressures of modern day early sexualisation of girls I celebrate that. I don't believe chastity and delaying sexual activity until post teenage years or until marriage is a bad or damaging situation for young people, quite the opposite (though I probably did once)
You have a very rose tinted view of your tribe.
People had more resources because of capitalism and a semi free market, neither of which are idealogies of the left.
Bismark invented the social welfare state as we know it and he was not a leftist.
The main reason that Europe has such a massive social system, built in the mid 20th century is because they outsourced their defense spending to the Americans.
Most of the left attitudes come from the bible, tolerance, fairness, justice, forgiveness, equality these were all espoused by Jesus Christ.
Perhaps the left despises Christians because they realise they are far better at practicing what they preach then the left have ever been.
See Jacinda Ardern and all her "kindness".
LoL it wasn't HIS conference, he was one speaker among many. You sound hysterical. Calm down. I don't follow the Man on the Cross and yes, the enemy of my enemy is my friend - take the win, and when children are no longer being mutilated for feelings in their head, we'll part ways.
He has a vision which he is welcome to try and fulfil. We are welcome to stop it: AFTER we've won. As for 'gender critical' I'm not. That's a tainted bullshit term the managerial class call themselves as they fete and dine with perverted skinwalking trannys like David Hayton, tell us to get fucked for not using his preferred pronouns etc. I'm a believer in reality. Shove 'gender critical' into a stink ditch.
I disagree with KJK on other issues - we'll talk about that over a cuppa WHEN WE'VE WON.
Also, NZ is founded on Christian principles and I will fight until my last breath to keep the child raping woman hating religion of 'peace' far the fuck away from having power here, too.